Rhea Wong · Founder, Rhea Wong Consulting | As a nonprofit leadership coach and major gifts consultant, Rhea brings a decade of expertise to her book Get That Money, Honey! The No-Bullsh*t Guide to Raising More Money for Your Nonprofit.

Let's start with a phrase that we don’t say often enough: “Get that money, honey!”

Today’s guest, nonprofit leadership coach and major gifts consultant, Rhea Wong, comes to the charitable sector with experience as a recipient of nonprofit services, a green-but-hustling ED, a self-taught fundraising expert, and a charitable board whisperer.

And as we’ve established, the title of Rhea’s book Get That Money, Honey! The No-Bullsh*t Guide to Raising More Money for Your Nonprofit isn’t just fun to say, it’s full of actionable strategies and learn-from-my-mistakes moments—and Rhea is here to dig through it with us.

Prepare to be entertained and educated in this episode! Rhea and David discuss mindset versus skillset, untelling unhelpful stories, turning the ask into the win, and manifesting Big Donor Energy.

Hello and welcome to this episode of Nonstop Nonprofit!

David Schwab We are so excited today to have you on the podcast. Thank you for taking the time, talking with me and sharing your wisdom with our audience.

Rhea Wong David, it is such an honor. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk about literally my favorite topic, which is fundraising and money.

David Schwab I love it. We are going to have such a fun episode. We've got a great conversation lined up. But before we go to deep, I just want to give you a chance. Introduce yourself. Question I like to start every every podcast because everyone's story is a little bit different. What is it about the nonprofit sector that brought you in in the first place and now for a well over a decade has stuck? What is it about this that got you in? Kept you? What do you love about it?

Rhea Wong Yeah. So funny thing, I actually ended up being an executive director of an organization that I was part of when I was a middle school kid. So for me, it was deeply personal, and I saw firsthand the ways in which nonprofit had made my life better and had created opportunities for me. The reason I started is it, frankly, it just is full of the most amazing, generous people I've ever met. So when I you know, I'm sure you are too out in the world and you meet people in different industries and look, you can be good people everywhere you go. I find that when you're talking to folks in industries like finance or tech, there tends to be kind of a cutthroat ness to them that is a little off putting. Whereas when I meet nonprofit people, I know immediately they're going to be, generally speaking, really open and really generous, really wanting to help. So came for the cause, stayed for the people.

David Schwab It's really interesting you go to the people side because that was that was one of the things that first I first saw in love within the sector. I've always been on the fundraising side and more consulting than directly involved, but I always have this. I've had this unique opportunity to have a peer review in the back end and look at like, okay, when we asked for this thing, like the sheer volume and generosity of people, it's always kept me coming back because I'm like, I just literally get to see the best in humanity. Yeah, working in the space when people are giving to get nothing in return simply because they believe in a cause and a mission and want to see the world a better place. That's my piece that has kept me in it for so long. And it's awesome to hear your heart and your personal connection to your cause. It comes through so much. And when I, when I listen to you talk about the space and talk about fundraising and specifically talk about your the organization that you lead that now clicks and makes so much more sense.

Rhea Wong Yeah. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, nonprofit people are obviously not in it for the money, right? And a lot of folks are really talented, really smart, really hard work. And they could be making a ton of money doing something else. But they've decided to dedicate their lives to making the world a better place. Like, that's great. Like, why wouldn't I want to do that? And actually, it's funny you mention it. So this past weekend, I actually had a chance to catch up with one of my former students that was in the organization when I was running it. And she's a senior at Yale, you know, and she's at the brink of starting her life. You know, she's a daughter of African immigrants and she is doing incredible things. And I feel like that is what I get to be a part of as the legacy of my life. What a privilege. What an honor to do that to have been able to touch so many lives and know that their lives have just been a little bit better because I existed on the planet. Like, fantastic. Love it.

David Schwab I love it. Well Rhea, I am really excited today to dig in to some of that passion and talk about your book. Get That Money, honey. I love that title. Every time I open up my I, I got the Kindle version. Every time I open my Kindle, it's the the cover on my Kindle. I'm like, Oh, yes. So I have reading it for I've read it and then reread it now.

Rhea Wong Thanks.

David Schwab And just amazing book. And there's so much incredible information, but practical information for fundraisers and executive directors and leaders and really anyone who has a hand or foot or body in the nonprofit space. So I wanted to spend some time just talking about some of the ideas and themes from that book. If that sounds good to you.

Rhea Wong Yeah, let's do it. I love it. Actually I don't know if you know this, the book was my pandemic baby. So, lots of people had babies. I wrote a book with my collaborator, Isabella Masucci, who, by the way, was also one of my students. So what's really funny is I get to collab now that they're grown people and it was really my attempt to kind of download all the stuff that I had learned along the way in a fun and actionable format because I don't know about you. Like I read lots of nonprofit books and they tend to be pretty dry and they're pretty boring. And I was like, I don't want to read these books. Like, I don't think other people want to read the books, any of the pieces. I wanted to make it super actionable. So that's why it's jampacked with things like worksheets and exercises because it's only as good as the actions that you put into place, right? So you can read something, but if you don't do anything with that, information is basically useless. So that was the thought behind it.

David Schwab Definitely rings through as you read it. The book feels more like a conversation than many books in our space feel like textbooks or guides or like intellectual study of what we do. Yours is yours very much was the, I've lived it, I've done it, I know what you're going through. Here's how to move faster to do more. And I think that's such a critical need for our space is people who've achieved and are ready to turn around and put that hand out and go, okay, let me help you achieve what I did faster so you can achieve more. So that way we can see more good done more often.

Rhea Wong Yeah, yeah. I'm glad that came through because my one of my mottos is like, I've made the mistake so you don't have to go make new and different mistakes. Don't make the same mistakes. So I mean, and I like all the mistakes I made. You could just about fill the Grand Canyon. Well, I mean, I was a 26-year-old, E.D. I talk about this in the book, but literally to Google searches the first day on the job. Google search one was what is the ED do and Google search two was how do you fundraise? I mean, that was the level of clueless. Like before that, I had done like some fundraising for like an AIDS marathon plus, you know, all of the requisite like candy bar selling when you're a kid in school. But I never actually fundraised at this level. And so and there just frankly, wasn't a lot out there. So I took every free class I could, every webinar. This is kind of before the webinar days. I went to meet with anybody who would take a meeting, and I kind of had to create my own fundraising MBA. And I just thought, Let me save people a decade of trial and error.

David Schwab It's funny, like you say that, and I'm like, I'm just flashing back. Like that's literally the intro of the book is like, Hey, let me just give you a decade of experience. And the next was ten chapters or something is the book. Yeah, I love it. I want to you talked about like, Hey, here's a fundraising MBA and I kind of want to just jump off of that and go into one of the first topics that I thought was so important and I want to talk through with you and flesh out a little. So you talked about the 80/20 rule in your book and specifically how 80% of your successes, your mindset as a fundraiser, and only 20%. Yeah. Is your tactic or your execution. Yeah, I want to go in there because I think so much of that is true and the challenge that we face. But before I want to kind of have a little caveat on top, I don't know if you know. Julia Donors.

Rhea Wong Yeah, yeah, definitely.

David Schwab We recently had her on the podcast and published her episode and her whole episode and her whole, her whole concept is don't change the way you fundraise, change the fundraiser that you are. Like be the type of fundraiser that has the courage to make the big gift. Be the type of fundraiser that makes the ask, that makes the generational change for the organization. It's not how you ask or what you ask. Like that's a piece of it, but it's who you are, who the person asking.

Rhea Wong Yeah, yeah.

David Schwab And as I was reading that, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like I was like, this is like they are saying the same thing and I'm so glad because it is so important, because so often we're taught to ask, What do I do next? Not who do I have to become? And so that's the part that I want to talk about is is that mindset of not just how do I get excited to go make a gift, but how do I be the person that's excited to go ask for the gift?

Rhea Wong Yeah. Oh, my gosh. David, where to even begin? And I'm glad that you mentioned Julie. Julie is someone I really admire. I get her newsletters and, you know, I think I'm brave. But when I see Julia, like, wow, she is really, like, out there doing it, being fearless. So. So kudos, Julie, for listening to this episode. You know, I think about this a lot. So, David, have you ever played sports at all? Like, are you?

David Schwab I've been known to dabble here and there.

Rhea Wong Well, or, have you, are you a sports fan?

David Schwab Love it. I love sports.

Rhea Wong Okay. Okay. So...

David Schwab A was being a little facetious. I played college baseball.

Rhea Wong Oh, okay. I love that. All right. So college baseball. So as an athlete, how much of your success was your mindset versus your skill set?

David Schwab All of it. Like all of it, you get to a certain degree and everyone as good as everyone else on the field.

Rhea Wong Exactly. Exactly. And so I think that's the same with fundraising. Once you've reached a sort of basic threshold of skill, then it's about what is the mindset, What is my competitive advantage? And it's all in your brain, right? So like, yes, skills matter, competency matters. But I think it matters less than your mindset and less than your sort of mental fortitude to get it done. And so I'll just flag a couple of things that I think are essential for fundraising. So number one, I think unpacking your own stuff about money, we all have stuff about money, right? Even if you grew up poor, if you grew up rich, like we all have stuff. And the stuff that we have are usually unhelpful stories that we tell ourselves about money. Like, if I don't have money, like I'm less than, right? Like we use money as a as a yardstick to measure up. We use the number in our bank account to make us, you know, make a story about how worthy we are or unworthy we are. We think that rich people are different in some way. They're better, they're meaner, they're kinder, they did bad things to get their money. Like, we have all this narrative around money when really it's just a piece of paper, right? It's just like literally a piece of paper with a dead president's face on it. And so the narrative is, first, what we need to impact, and especially for folks who are coming from a, you know, somewhat traumatic background, whether it's a history of ancestral trauma or societal trauma or systemic trauma or relationship trauma or racial trauma, like we we carry this trauma inside of ourselves that affects our relationship to money, right? So if you are the kind of person, let's say, whose ancestors have been enslaved, you have a relationship with money and with capitalism that is that feels very traumatic and unhelpful because it's true. Like you have experienced violence and trauma because of capitalism, right? So I think the first thing is you have to kind of unpack and heal yourself around some of these unhelpful stories. So that's the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say is I think we also need to create different stories. So I think the story that a lot of us have is if I get this gift, I'm a good fundraiser. If I don't get the gift, I'm a bad fundraiser. The truth of the matter is you have no control over the outcome. Like you literally and like, unless someone has figured out how to mind control, people like the yes or the no is not up to you. So if we can reframe and have the ask be the win, like, did I get this out of my mouth? Did I do all of the steps to set me up for success? Did I create this relationship of trust and think about how I can offer my donor the opportunity to, I like to say immortality, right? Like I have I offered them the opportunity to be immortal in a sense, then I did my job. Then I am a good fundraiser. So if we can set up the ask as the win, not the outcome as the win, I think that's really helpful. The third thing I think we need to think about is getting out of this scarcity mindset. And what I mean by that is even the word nonprofit is a negative. It's not nonprofit as opposed to, you know, social impact or whatever new terminology we're using. But I think on.

David Schwab That on that topic, my my number one like 2024, my focus is going to be changing the way we talk about ourselves. We're not the nonprofit sector. We are the for good sector. Yeah, I'm done with being in the nonprofit sector we're in.

Rhea Wong I know it. It feels so negative, right? We're already coming from this place of scarcity. And then I think the culture of nonprofits is even more underlined that even more it's like, Oh, we can't afford that. We're poor, you know, we can't be paid well, Like we're grinding. Oh, it's like a badge of honor. If I work 100 hours a week and I don't pee, like we just need to change the culture of all that. And I think part of it, too, lies with our board, right? Our boards are coming from this place of scarcity. And so when we're acting in that scarcity place, we then look at our donors not as potential partners, but as targets. Like how many times have you heard like, Oh, we just have to like target people or like, let's twist some arms or like, we're going to go begging, right? It we forget that on the other side of that check, on the other side of that gift is a person. And they have needs and wants and desires and dreams just like I do. And so we need to stop treating people like their numbers and start seeing the humanity in them and the other pieces. I think we also need to recognize, like we are living in incredible abundance right now. I was literally just listening to the Daily this morning. The economy is actually doing great, but we have very bad vibes around the economy, probably because a lot of us are seeing, you know, the groceries being more expensive and the gas pump being more expensive. But in that debt, like as an economy, we are living in the richest time in human history. And for those of us in the U.S., we are living in the richest country in the world. We're doing fine. Like there is enough out there. There might be a distribution problem, but there's. Not a volume problem. And I think the sooner we can get over ourselves and realize that we can see opportunity everywhere, the more we are willing to engage with people on a human level and also willing to walk away. I think the other thing is when we believe that this is the last, if I'm ever going to get, we put up with behaviors or people that are not, you know, fulfilling our soul, let's say. So I just went on a long tangent there. What was the question again?

David Schwab You answered the question really well. I think one of the things I just want to respond to that last piece, like, yeah, I want to give every fundraiser listening to this the empowerment, to say you do not need that person's gift.

Rhea Wong Yeah.

David Schwab You can say no.

Rhea Wong Always be, always be the buyer. Yes, Always be the buyer. Yes, for sure.

David Schwab That was one of the things that I thought was like such a it was my aha moment really. When I was reading the book, I was like, Yes, yes. Like when we stop limiting what we're able to do. By what we think people think we're able to do and look at like what is actually in front of us?

Rhea Wong Mm hmm.

David Schwab It changes the way we ask and it changes the confidence that you get to walk into that ask. And I think that's a critical piece to it, is when you have set yourself up well, to walk into a meeting, a coffee, a dinner, a lunch, whatever that is, you know, the person you have a relationship with, the person they know you educated about the mission and you make that ask. It doesn't matter what they say. You don't need that gift. You have the confidence to know you've done everything that you need to do. And now it's on the person that's receiving the ask to decide if now's the right time.

Rhea Wong Right, right. So we were joking before we jumped on, but I'm just gonna say I'd like to talk about BDE, Big Donor Energy, right? So, like, if I'm putting out that Big Donor Energy, if I'm super confident in myself, if I am confident that I'm offering you value and an opportunity to be part of something and you decide not to take it, like it's not personal, like I just need to understand, like maybe it's not right for you right now, or maybe it's not the right time, or maybe it's not the right cause. It's okay. Bless and release. But look, people know this about me. I love a dating analogy. Are you more likely to get a date if you are desperate and you come in with like, Oh my gosh, are you going to be my boyfriend? Like, we're going to get married? And you're like, This is the first date. Calm yourself down, right?

David Schwab You're starting to sound like some of the coffees I had at my Christian college my freshman year. Like, come on. Like, let's lay off the throttle a little bit.

Rhea Wong Yeah. Can we just get to know each other? Right? Or are you going to get more people attracted to you? If you come in, you're cool. You know what you're about. You're confident, you're secure, and you're like, Hey, can we do something together? Like, I don't need you, you don't need me. But we can choose to build something together if it makes sense for both of us, if it feels right for both of us, and coming in with that kind of energy and that kind of confidence and that kind of security changes the whole game.

David Schwab To two anecdotes on this and then we can I promise we'll go on to the next topic.

Rhea Wong But I mean, David, I could talk about this forever, but please continue.

David Schwab I believe I could too. When you're thinking about that, ask it really is it is up to the person receiving the ask to decide if now is the right time, if it's the right amount, and it really doesn't matter how much or how you ask when you ask does not matter a lot. People are going to give when they're ready to give. Case in point, I was working with an organization that received a six figure gift through a paid search ad. Like there was no ask. There's no personal relationship. There was no customized. Hey, I know you make this much and you have this many assets. So rather than paint your Ferrari salmon pink, that's a nod to Julie. One of her recent posts Paint your next Ferrari salmon pink. Will you give us a get a 50,000? Like it literally is. People are going to give what they're able to give when they're able to give, whether it's we're talking mass fundraising or individual major gift fundraising. So, have the courage to walk in and know like you're your gift, your ask, like you've already done the work to prepare for that ask. And like you said, the win is making that ask.

Rhea Wong Well, and I would also just say this, too. If we look at where assets are, it has been an unprecedented time for donor advised funds and family foundations to be established. At the same time, that giving is kind of like when adjusted for 2023 levels has actually gone down. So that suggests to me that there is the resources are there somehow it's not translating into more donations. And I think it's because to your point, as a sector, we are not doing a good job of creating an environment where people get to know us, they get to trust us, they get to like us before they make the gift. Because I can't make you do anything, like nobody can make anyone do anything, really. So am I creating the conditions that will invite you into a conversation with me when the time is right for you? Right. So high pressure, high high pressure sales tactics or fundraising tactics generally do not work. They make you feel bad. They make me feel bad. And that's why everyone has a bad reputation. Instead, can we position ourselves as facilitators of a process like David? You want something to happen in the world? I assume, like you, you care about lots of things. There are probably some causes you care about more than others. How can I find out enough about what you want to help you get what you want in the world through our organization? That's the key. How are we the the Yoda's on the journey of our donors who are on their own path? Like we're all heroes of our own story. How can I help you to be the hero that you tell yourself that you are? When you lay your head down your pillow in night, what impact do you want in the world? And how can we do this together? It's a completely different orientation.

David Schwab I am so glad that you brought this up, because that was another piece that I wanted to talk about as as a fundraiser. When you're walking into a meeting or walking in or ready to make an asker, regardless if it's major gift, individual mass market, whatever type of fundraising you're doing, we can't forget that we're as fundraisers, as nonprofit organizations for good organizations. We're bringing real value to the world. And it is something that the person or the people you're asking for support can't do without you. Just because you're not selling a widget or something that they can put in their pocket and walk home with, you have a product that is incredibly valuable. And I think that mindset shift makes making asks whether broad mass market asks or individual major gift ask like everywhere in between. Having that mindset shift is is a critical piece to, you kind of touched on it the what many are calling the giving or the generosity crisis we're facing, when I think we've been living in a scarcity mindset and thinking that we have nothing to offer and we are bothering people asking for gifts, that's not true. We have a lot of value and you offer a lot on the other end like, that person you're asking to make a substantial gift to whatever, in whatever capacity $50 is as substantial $100,000 to certain people. When you're asking for that gift, you're not asking them to waste their money. You're giving them an opportunity to change the world in the way they can't.

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Rhea Wong I think I'm going to quote one of my mentors, Jennifer McRae. She always says, go into an ask on your feet, never at your knees, and you're asking them to stand shoulder to shoulder with you to accomplish something big in the world. Like I said, you know, the Giving pledge, you know, the billionaires that sign all of the the pledge that they're going to give a significant portion of their money. I did an analysis of the letters that everyone wrote and the top reason people give is that they want to have impact in the world. The second reason that they give is that they want to make it or they're they're giving back. So how can I help people make the impact that they want to see in the world? Last I checked, people did not give out of spite. People do not give to, you know, for, I mean, I guess if you're super cynical, you're like, well, you're giving for like vanity reasons and you want your name on, fire. And like and I think there's something deeper here. We all have values. How do we tap into the values and the ways in which those values are manifested through a gift? The other thing that you said that I just want to touch on briefly is when you're doing major gift fundraising, if you're doing it in the right way, when you're creating a relationship of trust and mutuality, the ask should never come as a surprise to somebody. And so I think sometimes when we rush and ask, we have an established trust, and so if I am in a trusting relationship, let's go back to this dating analogy, right? If you're a relationship with someone and it's going well and like you're building something together, by the time you pop the question, it shouldn't be a surprise. Like we should kind of be on the same track of like, Hey, this is where we're headed. I also like to ask permission to ask, Hey, David would now be the right time for us to talk about a value exchange like would now be the right time for us to talk about the ways in which you want to contribute. If you say yes and we have that meeting, then we're just now negotiating on the amount because you've already said yes. And the last thing I want to say about this is for folks who are who have significant monetary wealth, their time is more valuable to them than their money. So if they are spending time with you, taking the meeting, going on the site, visit, etc., etc., they're already giving and they're giving something more valuable than their money because time is not renewable. Money is.

David Schwab We can print money, we can't print time.

Rhea Wong Right? So they were really giving you their more valuable resource, which is time.

David Schwab So I'm going to I'm going to try and steer us to another topic that came up in the book. I feel like we could just keep going on this for hours and hours, But.

Rhea Wong I mean, I literally.

David Schwab Value and and so much that I want to bring at least introduce to our audience. We will for sure link to the book in the show notes so people can go get it themselves as a fantastic read. But I want to I want to shift from thinking, okay, how do I go make the big ask and become the person like there's also. Particularly from a leader perspective. You talked a lot about building, building, relationship building, trust building, and being the type of person who builds relationship and builds trust. But one of the places I think we so often neglect building relationship is internally, particularly with our board. And oh, I told this story of how you over the years built a board that ended up contributing nearly a third of your annual operating revenue. And I think like if anyone listening is like me, their jaws are probably on the floor thinking, Hey, my board doesn't like I was pulling teeth, getting my board to show up and read my quarterly report, let alone be nearly a third of my funding. Like, let's I want to unpack that because I think it's like having that in your arsenal makes everything else so much more approachable and attainable.

Rhea Wong Yeah. Oh, David, where to begin? Okay, so a couple of things here. So, number one, I think that people forget that their board members are actually also their biggest donors, because that's usually true. Right. And and we forget that it's almost like because they're so close to us, we kind of like mistreat them a little bit because they're like, well, you should be doing this right? So they never one, let's remember, they are our number one donors. Number two, they are also our number one fans, our ambassadors out in the world. And so if we are not firing them up and getting them excited about the work, how are they going to do that for other people? Number three, the thing that I think we often forget is that they need training. So I think we have this assumption that like, Oh, well, you're a big muckety muck at a Fortune 500 company, you must understand about money. Fundraising is a skill and we can't assume that they understand our industry because they understand this other industry. I don't know what I think. I'm number five. Number five is we often recruit people to our board without being explicit with them about the expectation. And so we get really annoyed that they're not doing the thing that they didn't know that they were supposed to do. Right. So a lot of today and I see this a lot with startup boards, they just recruit people. It's like, Oh, well, this is a friend of mine. I just need someone to put on the 501c3 paperwork, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then years later, they're like, My board's not fundraising. And it's like, Well, did you tell them that was an expectation? No, you didn't tell them and then you didn't provide any training and by the way, the other thing I literally just got off the phone with someone right before this call is they don't understand fundraising. They think fundraising is all solicitation. But what we know is solicitation is a 2% of the whole cycle, right? So you're out here asking board members to just like basically cold call their friends, to ask them for money without inviting them into a process. So I think the first thing is when I think about my board is you have to have a partner. And so I shout her out all the time. My the person who I really credit for helping me turn around the culture of the board is Liz Sherman. She was my board chair, and she really understood what it means to run a board to number one. She had experience and I would say to everyone listening, you have to give your board training in how to be a board member. Just because there are board members on companies, just because they're super impressive executives does not mean that they know how to be on a board. So that's the first thing. The second thing I will say is, Oh my God, board meetings are so boring. Here's what it usually looks like. I send out a board packet a week in advance. Hopefully then people may or may not read it before the meeting. Then if they show up to the meeting, I end up recapping everything that I put out in the packet. Guess why people don't like board meetings? Because they're boring. Instead, how do you use board meetings as an opportunity to get the best thinking around the table? Give them something meaty to think about. And. And here I'm going to call Bill Ryan out. There are three modes that boards can work and there's generative, there's strategic and there's financial. Often we get we've seen kind of the financial strategic run, but the generative is where the juicy stuff happens, like these folks and again, broad brush, but like these folks often don't get to engage in their day to day lives in really important questions of meaning and purpose and identity. Right? How do we give them that at the board level? How do we help them really wrestle with some very meaningful and meaty topics that gets them fired up? How do we remind them why they fell in love in the first place? Right. It's like if you're married, you don't just take your spouse out once a year on your anniversary. Like, you're constantly doing things to remind them of how we're building this relationship. And so I like to introduce a mission moment of maybe we bring someone in, a beneficiary, a kid to talk about the. Instead, the organization is meeting their lives. We have to help them remember why they fell in love in the first place. And then we tell them over and over and over again. So there's that. There's also the culture of the Borg, right? So you when you make explicit and transparent the thing that you want them to do, and then you help them and support them along the way, you're probably much more likely to get the outcome that you want. And then, you know, finally there's also bless and release. If you've put all of these structures in place and you've done all of the training and the support, etc., and the person still isn't doing what you need them to do, then maybe it's time to bless and release and as you say, love them out the door, but give them a chance.

David Schwab I'm just I'm literally jotting notes as we're talking and I've already read the book, like I've read the book and now we're talking and I'm writing it like, this is all incredible. I think as we get ready to wind down our time, I just have one question left that I think is going to be super valuable. So kudos to everyone who stuck around to this point. In the podcast. You have a framework, a proven framework that you've built over the years to approach major gift fundraising and sit down and get ready to make that ask. Can you give us a broad, sweeping view? What does that framework look like? How do you and it's under the guise you introduce this ten X principle where, you know, how do you get someone to give ten times more than they think they should be giving or they generally give? Or what? How do you open that door and what's that framework look like?

Rhea Wong So I'll answer this question into it. So I think there's the framework from the perspective of the fundraiser, and then there's a framework in the perspective of the donor. So I'll talk about both quickly. So the framework from the Fundraiser's perspective is I just created a new acronym, SPACE stands for State of mind, Practice, Ask, Community and Engagement. Right? So in my program, which I'm relaunching at the beginning of 2024, so if you're listening to this, it's probably relaunched by then. We create the space to become, as Julie says, the fundraisers that you want to be. And a lot of it is the internal work. The whole lot of it is learning the practices and the tools. So that's the first thing. Then the second thing with respect to major gift donors, what we know is that it takes about 18 months to turn over a major gift. And by major gift I'm talking kind of five, six, seven figures. You can't rush that. And the idea behind it and I'm going to name check Greg Werner and Dr. Russell James here is you're helping people to realize a vision of themselves. And so what that looks like is you are engaging with them in explicitly saying that we're going to go on this journey together. And I think the mistake that we make is that we hide the ball. We're like, Oh, we're going to ask people to go for coffee, but like we haven't told them why we want to go for coffee or like, what to do for them, right? So we're really explicit about laying out the path together because, David, if I'm engaging with you and I'm determined that you're a major gift prospect for me, let's just talk about what that cultivation journey is going to look like together. Because at the end of the day, I'm going to help you to realize the purpose in your life and how you want that to be manifested in the organization. And then at the end of that process, again, I'm very explicit about it so we don't get to the end. And you just think that like we're friends and I like hanging out with you, like we're going for a specific reason. When the time is right after we've established the trust, I am going to ask you for permission to ask. And then after I ask you for permission to ask it, continue to steward you so that you feel that you're really part of this organization, that this has really helped you to embody the values and the impact that you want to have in the world? So I don't know if they answered your question, but essentially, like it's not rocket science, it's just people. It's like people being people.

David Schwab So I always like to close with story time. So as we get ready to wrap up here, can you just tell us a story of either one of your most memorable major gift meetings, maybe either one that went really, really well or one that didn't go so well? Because I feel like there's so much meat that we've talked about. But hearing what that sounds, feels and looks like through a story is going to bring us home.

Rhea Wong Yeah. So I love this question. And actually I was thinking about it in the most memorable ask I've ever made was not big in number, but it was big in heart. So I don't know if you'll remember, there was this Hurricane Katrina that ripped through New Orleans. And so a bunch of my kids at the time decided to do a talent show fundraiser to raise money for the kids of New Orleans, which was such a lovely thing. And we pulled it together on a Saturday. And I remember this kid, Moses Gardner. He was 13 at the time, and he's so cute. He always dressed in like a suit and tie. He was an usher and he was like handing out the fliers or the, you know, the programs to everyone who came in was like parents who came and board members, etc., etc.. Anyway, at the end of the the showcase, he pushes his little tattered envelope over to me. It was like crinkly and it had $10 written on it and I opened it up and I was like, Moses, you don't have to do this. He goes, No, no, no. I made this money by playing drums in my church band. The kids in New Orleans need it more than me. And this is not a kid who had extra money to give, Right? But that $10 meant so much more to me because it came from his heart and it came from a kid who, you know, on a percentage basis that would probably make his whole week spending. And I get emotional still thinking about it, because if Moses Gardner can give me $10 and this is a kid who did not have a lot of money and he played drums in his church band in order to do this, then everybody can give.

David Schwab I think that's a perfect, perfect cap to an incredible conversation. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your wisdom and expertise. Thank you for that awesome story, too, to wrap us up. Last thing, any closing thoughts? I know everyone listening to this is going to want to follow up with you, meet you somehow. So maybe what's the best place for our audience to connect with you and engage with you?

Rhea Wong Yeah, well, first of all, thanks so much, David, for having me. This is an awesome conversation. I'm sure you and I could go on for hours and hours and hours. The best place to reach me is my website, www.rheawong.com. If you want to sign up for my newsletter, I send out a free weekly newsletter. You'll probably be sick of hearing from me, but it's inspiration. Showcase my weekly podcast for you. It's a place where I announce anything that's coming up, so that's the best place. The second best place is LinkedIn. I'm very active there, but those are kind of the two best places to Fabian also. Hey, if you like the book, I'd love an Amazon review and if you hated the book, don't review it!

David Schwab All right. Well, we will we will absolutely be linking link to your book, to your website and to your LinkedIn so people listening can connect and engage with you and go deeper and learn more from you. Thank you again for your time today.

Rhea Wong Thanks, David. Always a pleasure.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Nonstop Nonprofit! This podcast is brought to you by your friends at Funraise - Nonprofit fundraising software, built for nonprofit people by nonprofit people. If you’d like to continue the conversation, find me on LinkedIn or text me at 714-717-2474. 

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